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The purchase and sales of a new fire truck can be a very time consuming, expensive and difficult process. It doesn't need to be. Better still, you don't pay us to help you with all of the necessary steps to make the process of buying a reliable and affordable fire truck as simple and smooth as is possible. Below are several points to consider to protect yourself and your department from buying a lemon fire truck.
Below are some of the common and simple fact finding things you can do to save yourself and your fire department a lot of grief and money. 1. GET THE FACTS: A. When first announcing your interest/need in a new fire truck, keep the requirements simple such as: chassis type/manufacturer, seating capacity, number of SCBA seats, pump capacity, intakes & discharges, tank capacity, foam y/n and/or type, aerial length, cabinet doors type, and any other specific requirement you have. B. Ask other fire departments in your area what their experience has been like with a particular manufacture and/or dealer per issues such as prompt & professional customer service, repairs covered under warranty, repairs not covered under warranty, types of repairs needed, and their costs. C. Get a minimum of three (3) fire department customer sources of information for apparatus bought within the past five (5) years and five (5) customer sources/references per customer service, warranty repairs and repairs not covered by warranties for new fire trucks purchased within the past ten (10) years. D. Do a Google Web and Google News or Yahoo Web and Yahoo News search for things like "fire truck problems", "fire truck issues", "fire truck defects", "fire truck recalls", and similar. You can also do this for specific fire truck manufacturers, such as American La France, Crimson, E-One, Ferarra, Midwest Fire, Pierce, Seagrave, Sutphen, Wynn and/or any other specific manufacturer from whom you are considering purchasing a new fire truck. E. Do a Google Web and Google News or Yahoo Web and Yahoo News search for financial issues which may effect a manufacturer's and/or dealer's ability to honor warranties issues, and perhaps even the ability to build your new fire truck. These searches should be specific to companies, such as: "American La France bankruptcies", "E-One lay-offs", or simply use the "NEWS" elements of the search engines to see what the news history has been for the manufacturer or dealer. 2. DEALER AND MANUFACTURER RELATIONSHIPS: A. Find out how long the dealer has been in business, how long they have been representing the manufacturer, who they may have previously represented, why they terminated or why they were terminated from this previous relationship. Contact the manufacturer to gain as much information as possible, but do realize that some of the information they provide may be motivated because they want their new dealer to sell you your new fire truck...just do the due diligence, consider the facts and the motivations of all parties. This will not only give you information about the dealer and their stability, but also may give you some information about the other dealers and manufacturers, who may be submitting a bid to sell you a fire truck. B. Make sure the dealer or whoever services the trucks for the manufacturer has EVT (Emergency Vehicle Technicians) on their staff, who understand firefighting apparatus and who know how to service, provide preventive maintenance and to repair emergency vehicles. Make certain they have been factory trained for pump and aerial maintenance by the manufacturer of the pump and aerial, if/when applicable. C. Find out if and which fire truck manufacturer the dealer may have represented previously. If so, find out if the manufacturer terminated the relationship and why and also if the dealer terminated the relationship, why this is so. In recent years there have been many fire truck dealers playing musical chairs with manufacturers. D. DO NOT buy a fire truck from a manufacturer, who does not have a dealer network. E. DO NOT buy a fire truck from a dealer that is more than 100 miles from you. F. DO NOT buy a fire truck from a manufacturer, who does not have a repair shop within 50 miles of you who is authorized to do warranty work, or has instead a system where they send a factory repairman to work on the truck in your bay, within 24 hours of you notifying them of a problem. G. DO NOT buy a fire truck from a manufacturer or dealer, who does not give you an idea of the shop hour rates and what it may cost to do certain repairs to chassis issues, pump issues, leaking tanks and most certainly electronic issues, which are not covered by warranty. 3. DEALERS WRITING YOUR SPECS: As stated above, send out an RFP with only basic information regarding your requirements. Whether it is for a grant or if it is for a bid, often fire departments will ask a dealer to write the specs for the new fire truck. First of all they are not going to write the specs for the fire truck you need. They are going to write the spec for the expensive fire truck they want to sell you, because they make more money by doing so. A. If they don't ask about your call volume, the nature of your calls, your manpower availability, your existing apparatus, community risks/hazards, and other important considerations...then how can they possibly know what you need? If they don't have a fire department and a community-risk profile form and help you with other means to determine exactly what it is your really need, don't even so much as consider buying a model fire truck from them, because they then don't know (and show they don't care) what you need, only what makes them the most money. B. DO NOT feel obligated to buy a truck from someone who wrote your bid specs, "to help you". C. DO NOT even consider a bid-spec written for you that has items in that that say "Proprietary Items" and or anything that says: "May Not Substitute", because this is how you are going to get locked into buying a fire truck someone wants to sell you, instead of buying the fire truck you need. D. Make sure there is a delivery date (# of days) after the approval of the bid and you pay a ten percent (10%) deposit, with a penalty for any delays in delivery, such as $500/day ($1,000/day for apparatus which pumps water) for each day past the delivery date. E. Make sure the dealer includes a requirement of a performance bond to be included with the bid per the specs of the truck being met, per the reliability of the apparatus and per the truck being built and delivered on time. F. It is far better to hire a consultant to help you write your specs and with the bidding process, because their costs/fees will save you anywhere from 10 - 20 times, if not more, than if you had a dealer selling you the truck to write your bid...which is like giving him a blank check from your checkbook...you wouldn't do that would you? 4. LONG & COMPLICATED BID SPECS: A. There's an old expression "if you can't dazzle them with your brilliance, baffle them with your B.S." . . . this sure relates to some of the bid/specs we have seen. A bid/spec should be easy to follow and understand, same with the bids you get back from your RFP, because how else will you know if they are meeting and/or exceeding your needs and requirements? B. There should be a summary sheet on the front, which has the basic break down per chassis, engine, transmission, water pump, aerial/out-riggers, cabinets, scene and emergency lighting, generator, special equipment etc. This should correspond in greater detail with the appropriate section in the rest of the bid. If the bid/spec is a thick book, its only value to you may be to set it on fire to use as a training aid trying to put out something this large. C. DO NOT send out an RFP, or accept any reply bid/spec you do not fully and completely understand, because how else will you know whether or not you are getting what you are paying for and how else can you successfully enforce the bid/contract? 5. DON'T OVERBUILD: A. If a fire department near you just got a new fire truck with a 1500 gpm pump, you don't need to get a new truck with a 2000 gpm pump, unless it is on a quint, or you have a serious and major industrial hazard/risk/exposure in your community. Ask yourself this question: "Who can handle a hose line with that kind of volume?". Also factor that even on a quint, the monitor at the tip of the aerial is usually only going to be able to push out 1000 gpm in a surround & drown operation and how many times do you have those requiring this kind of volume? B. Make sure the truck isn't so big and so heavy that you don't have to build a new fire station or annex to the station to house it. C. Make sure the truck isn't so large that you can't get it down every street and across every bridge and culvert in your community. What good is a fire truck, if you can't get it to the scene of a fire? This is particularly true of heavy-duty rescues, tanker-pumpers, and water tenders. Any apparatus with a water tank over 2000 gallon needs to be built on a tandem-axle chassis to support the weight. D. Consider a quick attack as your first responder unit. This is true because it will not only save you money in fuel and these are easier and less expensive to maintain and to repair, but the whole idea is to get the wet stuff on the red stuff as fast as you can, so that a little fire doesn't become a big fire. A 400 gallon tank, with foam, on a quick attack can do a lot of firefighting and lets face it if you arrive and need more than this, the structure is usually gone already and you need to wait on your other units for your surround and drown operation. Same is true per bringing an aerial, because "if the stick goes up, the structure is coming down" (if not immediately after the insurance agent is finished crying). E. If as a policy your department sends out apparatus with purely medically related (Heart Attack, Strokes, non-rescue accidents, etc.) ambulance calls, a small quick attack with rescue gear will prove far more useful than a pumper or an aerial. 6. PRE-CONSTRUCTION MEETINGS AND MID-CONSTRUCTION INSPECTIONS: A. You should not have to pay for someone's time for them to meet with you about selling you a fire truck, so don't do it and don't let it be included in the price of the fire truck. If they wish to sell you a fire truck, they'll make time for you. B. DO NOT pay for or attend any kind of conference or inspection of the truck while it is being built! Often dealers/manufacturers will not only charge you for this meeting/inspection, but they will have you sign off on it as 'inspected' and that all is well. What you have done then is to pay them for assuming all of THEIR product liability, so that if something is wrong or goes wrong mechanically, you have just put it into writing you knew about and said it was OK...this means you and your fire department are then and now totally responsible for fixing it, changing it and paying all costs for such repairs. Why would you do that? Why would you pay to do it??? Instead, make the manufacturer/dealer send you photos of the truck under construction as either hardcopy photos, as attachments to e-mails or a link where these photos can be viewed on their web site. If you wish to see these or need them for a meeting it is up to the dealer and the manufacturer to send you these photos and progress reports. The only time you want or you need to see that truck, is when it is being delivered and backed into your bay on or before the day the contract says it is to be delivered. 7. PAYING FOR THE CONSTRUCTION IN PHASES: A. Some manufacturers, certainly smaller and less financially able-stable companies will want you to pay for each phase of the construction of your new fire truck. Thus, they prefer to be paid in phases of construction, such as purchasing of the chassis from another manufacturer, purchase of the pump, water tank, foam systems and other equipment they do not make, but must purchase elsewhere. Do so at your own risk! B. It is best to only pay a ten percent (10%) deposit to the dealer or manufacturer, with 75% of the balance paid on the day of delivery and you and your fire department are satisfied you received the fire truck you paid for and there are no known defects, deficiencies or issues with your new fire truck. C. Retain a minimum of fifteen percent (15%) of the balance of the price of the fire truck, until thirty (30) days after it has been delivered, you have had a day or so training with it and you have had time and opportunities to inspect every working component of your new fire truck to make sure their are no defects, deficiencies or any issues whatsoever, whether they are covered by the manufacturer's warranty or not. D. Have a provision in the sales contract that for each day the truck has not been delivered past the delivery date and is not in service in your bay a deduction of $500 per day and $1,000 per day for new fire trucks which pump water. 8. T-SHIRTS, BALL CAPS, BURGERS and BEER: A. DO NOT feel obligated to buy a fire truck from a manufacturer or dealer, just because they 'gave you' t-shirts, ball caps, and buy you a couple of beers. Often you will find you not only paid for these, but you paid premium prices that ultimately amount to $500 per t-shirt, ball cap & beer. B. Why would you pay to advertise for someone...instead, if they want you to wear their t-shirts and ball caps to advertise for them, then have them deduct $500 from the price of the truck for each t-shirt and ball cap you wear to advertise for them. 9. WARRANTIES AND SERVICE: A. Make sure that you have warranties for the chassis, the pump, the tank, the aerial (if applicable) and all other components. A warranty for the paint job is not sufficient and it is useless. B. Make sure that if the dealer/manufacturer is also supplying service that they and their staff are indeed EVT and not just a diesel mechanic. C. Make sure that all warranties and related are clearly disclosed as to what they do indeed cover, for how long, any disclaimers and/or exemptions, and all deductible costs for these warranties. D. DO NOT buy extended warranty packages, because if the apparatus doesn't have a reasonable warranty period, then it is most likely because the manufacturer and/or dealer do not have faith in their product. If they don't trust their product enough to give it a warranty for parts and labor for items that break from reasonable use, then why would you trust your life and the lives of others with this fire truck? 10. DELIVERY, INSPECTION AND TRAINING: A. When you take possession of your new fire truck, you should have at least one (1) full day worth of training from the dealer/manufacturer included with your purchase price. B. When you inspect your new fire truck, check out every light, the engine throttled up, the tranny, the brakes, the pump at capacity, every seal, the dumps time, fill time, the outrigger and aerial (if applicable), communications, and just about every feature you purchased on your new fire truck. C. Create a checklist of these features and don't sign anything per delivery, until after your new fire truck passes your inspection. You may wish to also have someone else there as a third party witness or inspector to make sure that the truck you bought and paid for is the truck you take delivery. 11: PAPERWORK: A. Upon delivery and successful inspection, make sure you have the title, warranties and all paperwork necessary to register and insure your truck, before putting it into service. B. If you do not have receipts and all paperwork, then you are not ready to accept delivery of the new fire truck and put it into service. 12: WHAT TO DO IF YOU DON'T GET THE NEW FIRE TRUCK YOU PAID FOR, THERE ARE DEFECTS AND OTHER PROBLEMS: A. The first thing to do is prevention by following the above steps and look for some of the tell-tale signs the product, dealer or manufacturer are not what you need to pursue. Have your department's lawyer carefully look over the sales agreement you are sent by the dealer and manufacturer, while also having them consider all of the points above which will help protect you from having a potentially very bad experience. B. If you have been ripped off, the truck was never delivered, warranties are not honored and there are other problems, you may wish to have your attorney ask other fire departments if they have had similar problems or issues with the dealer or manufacturer. You may then wish to have them file a civil suit to compel the dealer and/or manufacturer to make sure you get what you've paid a lot of money to receive. If it is a safety issue, you may wish to ask your fire department's attorney to pursue appropriate criminal actions and charges relating to 'reckless endangerment'. C. If you got a raw deal on a fire truck from a dealer or manufacturer, contact you county district attorney's office and/or your state's attorney general's office to report the problem or issue and see if this also may be something covered in your state's lemon laws. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- USED FIRE TRUCK SALES AND PURCHASING CONSIDERATIONS Some of the pitfalls and issues with buying a used fire truck are similar to buying a new one, certainly when it comes to manufacturer's dealers and independent dealers and marketers. Here are just a few of them. 1. DEALERS and MARKETERS: A. If a dealer or marketer has a large number of fire trucks on their web site, it is either because they just have a lot of pictures of fire trucks and they are just trying to attract inquiries, bait & switch or other practices, or they have a lot of fire trucks they have can't sell and they have not been able to sell for the fire departments listing them. If you are buying a fire truck, you may wish to offer 75% of the asking price of the fire truck. B. If the dealer or marketer has a commission higher than 5% for a used fire truck, this often forces a fire department to ask too much for their used fire truck, which causes it to continue to cost the seller money in maintaining and housing the apparatus, which is only going to continue to lose value with age. DO NOT list your truck with any "dealer", who charges more than a 5% commission. C. If a dealer or marketer does not disclose your asking price and simply uses "Call for Price", "Reduced", or similar in the advertising listing of your fire truck for sale, then get them to put it in writing, that by doing so they agree to purchase your fire truck for your full asking price, if it doesn't sell within ninety (90) days. D. If a dealer or marketer requires you to give them an exclusive listing, only do so if they agree, in writing, to purchase your fire truck for your full asking price, if it doesn't sell within ninety (90) days. E. If a dealer or marketer says in their marketing agreement they keep all sums above your asking price or all sums above 95% of your asking price, make them to agree then to purchase your used fire truck, for your full asking price, if they do not sell it within ninety (90) days. F. If you are trading in your used fire truck to purchase a new one, visit other web sites selling used fire trucks and only agree to a trade-in value that is no less than 75% of the average comparable sales prices you find through other sources. G. If you have had your used fire truck on the market for more than ninety (90) days, then you need to consider reducing your sales price and listing your fire truck for sale through other sources. If you are in a contract to list/sell your fire truck, you may wish to renegotiate this agreement, per the above Item-D hereto. H. If the dealer or marketer says "no contracts or paperwork necessary", run from them like a jack-rabbit, because without paperwork, how can you sell a truck and how can another buy the truck to then register it, to insure it, and put it into service? 2. PAPERWORK: A. A dealer or marketer or a selling fire department should be able to provide all information regarding the used fire truck they are selling, including copies of certifications, condition disclosure forms signed by the seller, whether or not they are the owner or just a listing agent, and other vital information. B. If you are selling a used fire truck and a dealer doesn't have a marketing agreement with a maximum commission of five percent (5%), an apparatus condition disclosure form, and other forms and processes to help you sell your truck, then you need to find another more capable, honest and credible dealer. 3. LENGTH OF TIME TO SELL A USED FIRE TRUCK: A. If a fire truck has been on a dealer's or marketer's web site or on the market for longer than ninety (90) days, it is because either there is something seriously wrong with this apparatus, or it is grossly overpriced. B. If you are a seller of a fire truck that has not sold you probably need to drop your asking price or find another listing agent dealer. If you are buying a fire truck and you've seen one on the market for over ninety (90) days, then consider making an offer for it at 25%-50% less the asking price. 4. CERTIFICATION: A. DO NOT buy a fire truck that is not certified, unless you are buying it to refurbish/restore it or modify it to then later have it certified. If you or another firefighter is inured because of some failure or defect of this truck you will run the risk of not only invalidating any insurance claim you may have, but this may be even a criminal negligence and/or reckless endangerment charge. 5. FAIR MARKET VALUE OF A USED FIRE TRUCK: A. Of course anybody buying and/or selling a used fire truck wants to get the best price. If you are looking for comparable either as buyer or seller, then as you visit various web sites selling fire trucks, look at their prices and reduce these by about 25%...this will give you a better idea of what you can ask and expect to receive for the purchase of the fire truck. B. Fire trucks are like any vehicle in that they are going to depreciate rapidly. Therefore, even though they are well-maintained and garaged kept, you are not going to sell your used fire truck for a price near what you paid for it. C. Often a used truck may not be exactly what you are seeking, but if you offer a little less, explaining that you need to change the lights, put in a bigger pump, tank, foam system or other feature, just remember the answer is always no, until you ask. 6. WARRANTIES AND SERVICE: A. Make sure that you have warranties for the chassis, the pump, the tank, the aerial (if applicable) and all other components, if they still exist. This is especially true if the pump has been rebuilt or replaced or there were other major refurbishing or restoration prior to the truck being put up for sale.. A warranty for the paint job is not sufficient and it is useless. B. Make sure that you have a local dealer/manufacturer supplying service that they and their staff are indeed EVT and not just a diesel mechanic. C. Make sure that all warranties, extended warranties and related are clearly disclosed as to what they do indeed cover, for how long, any disclaimers and/or exemptions, and all costs for these warranties. This is just a summary of some of the common practices we have seen in not only trying to deal with others in the sales of fire trucks, but also in the financing of these sales. If you wish to purchase a new or used fire truck, or sell your used fire truck, then contact us for more information.
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The purchase and sales of a new fire truck and even used fire trucks can be a very time consuming, expensive and difficult process. It doesn't need to be. We help you to define the best configuration, prices, information gathering and if necessary, financing solutions. Better still, you don't pay us to help you with all of the necessary steps to make the process as simple and smooth as is possible. As most of our customers are volunteer firefighters (working full-time jobs and/or purchasing fire trucks for the first time) let us help you take care of the details, leg-work, and making sure the purchase of your new fire truck continues in an orderly, easy and comfortable way. Same is true with the listing, marketing and sales of your used fire truck. If you are a fire department looking to sell your used fire truck, please visit Used-FireTrucks.com. If you a fire truck dealer wish to sell your used fire truck through us, please visit our Dealer's Agreement page.
If you are a fire department looking to buy reliable new or used firefighting apparatus, please visit any of our dealers, who are in your state or country. We also obtain the lowest interest and best terms for financing, while others use higher interest by unknown banks and finance companies, if they provide financing at all. At VFD-Fire Group, we will fund any new or used fire truck or piece of equipment for any fire department, who make their purchases with our preferred fire truck dealers.
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